Hmm....

[shanmonster]

Most people I know of are down on the idea of cosmetic surgery. However, I don't think any of these people think poorly of those who wear braces or get their teeth polished or capped. Why is this?

Comments

[elanya.livejournal.com]

Actually, I do think that all the cosmetic attention we pay to our teeth is horribly unecessary. Sure, someone may have a horrible overbite, but they can still eat fine, and itsn't that what teeth are really about?

I can understand pulling teeth to an extent, because sometimes it is necessary. An over crowded mouth can hurt, and cause a lot *mor* problems if wisdom teeth start to grow in. That is the main reason that I had mine pulled when I was little: to make room for my wisdom teeth (yay nothing has been impacted :D)

I have never really even had my teeth cleaned by my dentist, let alone polished or capped. I brush and whatnot every day, because that is a health thing. Our society eats far too much sugar to go without brushing. (I, especially, eat far too much sugar ;) But as for 'white teeth being healthy teeth'... historically, that is a load of bull. Most health dead people's that I have seen have been quite yellowed. I talked about this with a PHD student in osteology when I was helping her in the lab last year, and she told me that the really white teeth you find on some skelletons were the price of various forms of malnutrition, vitamin defficiency, etc.

Unfortunately, teeth are a huge factor on how people are physically judged in our culture. Straight, white 'perfect' teeth are a mark of beauty. I mean, just look at our negative physical stereotypes of the British. There is an idea that british dentistry is behind, technologically, because of the horrible teeth of older generations. Personally, I think this is just a matter of different cultural ideals. They don't put the emphasis on 'perfect teeth', so they don't (or at least didn't) put mouth-torturing devices on their children. I think that is starting to change, or has changed in recent generations, though.

Anyway, perfect(ly unnatural) teeth have become a desirable and relatively accessible cosmetic alteration for us now. I hate the fact that shuld I decide to have children, I'm going to have to put them through oral-hell too if they have 'bad teeth'. The big irony is that kids with teeth-altering devices (braces, retainers, etc)often get teased, so you aren't really saving them from any social judgement, either. You're just sort of putting them into a socially awkward situation in their more formative years, when their self-esteem is especially fragile. :p

Bah on it all.

[shanmonster.livejournal.com]

I'm not terribly worried about kids being teased because of dental appliances. I mean, if it's not teeth, it'll be their names (I went to school with a guy named Hartley, so just guess what his nickname was!), their clothes, their nose-picking, or their same-sex parents. Kids are sociopaths. A lack of orthodonture isn't going to make their lives any easier, when it comes to teasing.

I've had quite a bit of dental work done. When I was in grade one, both of my front teeth were snapped in half when a fat boy fell on my head. Since then, I've had to get repair work done on the fillings at least a half-dozen times. I suppose I could have done without getting these fixed, but I'm not terribly keen on the visual effects of broken teeth.

When I was in junior high school, I also wore a retainer, because one of my teeth was growing in near the centre of my palate. As a result, my tongue had sores on it all the time. The retainer painfully pushed the tooth where it belonged, but even though I was only about thirteen, I never complained about the pain. I'd rather have my tooth where it belonged.

Ironically, although I was bullied mercilessly during my junior high years, I don't recall ever being picked on for wearing a retainer. Go figure.

Now, I'm not particularly against the idea of cosmetic surgery. To me, it's not really any different from getting your ears pierced, except that it costs considerably more. So if someone old enough wants a boob job or collogen implants, I figure that's their prerogative.

Somehow, I can see myself getting botox treatments before I'd ever get my ears pierced.

[elanya.livejournal.com]

well, I'll cenceed the point about kids getting teased regardless. I know I did get teased a bit for my retainer, though, but I seem to have turned out alright ^-^

As I said, I do agree that dental work isn't always bad, and fixing broken teeth is one of those times, certainly :o

And I'm not *entirely* against other kinds of cosmetic surgery. It really depends on the reason, I suppose. I don't lkike the idea that people are socially expected to sink so much money into their teeth for purely cosmetic reasons (well, okay, not purely cosmetic. but can anything be 'purely' cosmetic when beauty is culturally and socially defined? Maybe I should ask Jocelyn Wildenstine ;) I guess it is for the same reasons that I don't like the fact that some women go to get boob jobs because they feel pressured to, so that they can be more attractive.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with some porn star making the investment in some falsies to augment her career. Well. I guess I can agree with her reasons for doing it, while at the same time wish she wouldn't so that she wouldn't be continuing the circle, and reinforciung the idea that a woman has to have big hooters to be sexy/beautiful. Or something.

Being persnickety

[shanmonster.livejournal.com]

You dye your hair, and presumably the dye is not free. I'm also presuming you dye your hair specifically for cosmetic reasons (although you could belong to some sort of religion where dying your hair is a sacrament).

I think that as far as physical appearance goes, hair ranks higher than teeth. Even the most socially-retarded person is expected to groom his or her hair, and I don't think there's any health reason for this (aside from keeping lice away, maybe). So shouldn't you be more concerned about how people are socially expected to sink so much money into their hair for purely cosmetic reasons?

Hmmm.....

Re: Being persnickety

[elanya.livejournal.com]

yes, I dye my hiar, but I'm not *expected* to. I'd even venture to say that people who dye long hair odd colours are reaching even beyond the norms of funny-coloured-hair subculture. Most people with funny-coloured hair keep it short, because they dye it a lot, or like to change colours, or whatever.Some older women think they are, but I'm not planning on being one of them, really. I wash my hair, and whatnot, and I brush it (though not necessarily regularly), but that's hygene. I don't even get it cut regularly. And it isn't like I go to any great lenghts to keep it in some elaborate style. I won't deny for a second that I'm really vain about my hair, but I don't actually sink a lot of money into it, or even that much effort.

I guess the thing with teeth is that a lot of the times, things like braces are *so* expensive, and orthodontists will try and sell them to people who don't *really* need them, because hell, that's how they get money. And people who don't necessarily need them can be convinced that they do, because of various social ideals. Sure, I may spend a lot of money on shampoo over the course of my life, but 8$ for almost a litre of the stuff ever couple of months seems a lot more reasonable than a couple thousand all at once for a few years of braces... It seems like less of an investment.

I don't really feel bothered about the hair thing, though, except for the part where women do feel pressure to cover up their greys or what not. The whole cosmetic quest for eternal youth bothers me, in fact. I do think that the prices charged for hair cuts are ridiculous, especially for women, and women with long hair. I might get mine trimmed more often if it wouldn't cost about $30 just for some wench to cut a straight line that takes about 5 minutes to do. And I'm not even thinking about the additional costs of shampoo, blow dry, etc, if I go for all that pampering. In fact, the last three or four times I've gotten mine cut, it hasn't even been by professionals. Or, at least, not paid ones (Jennifer's sister is a professional stylist, I got her to do it once, for free. As a side not, all the people I've gotten to cut my hair in the last few years have been named Mary. How bizzare :o ) I don't even own/use any styling products like gel or hairspray at the moment.

When I was younger, I felt a lot of pressure to have 'cool' hair. I could never get my hair to make 'wings' in junior high, no matter how hard I tried... I did get horribly teased in grade nine (and especially that summer, at cadet camp) for a *really* bad hair cut. Which is pretty much why I decided to stop cutting it. So I guess that is my reaction to those kinds of pressures.
I don't really like them, but I don't really feel them myself anymore, so I tend to forget about them.

So anyway, I don't find fault with people who cosmetically alter themselves because they *want* to. I don't like the fact that some people feel forced to do them, and I don't really ever plan to be one of them. I also don't like the fact that these often unecesary alterations are so insanely expensive.

[groovycat.livejournal.com]

i think part of it has to do with the fact that braces/polishing/whatever aren't surgery. it's not going to as far an extreme as actual cosmetic surgery is.

that, and because while a (limited) range of body types can be considered beautiful, society mandates that only perfect teeth are pretty.

[shanmonster.livejournal.com]

How extreme is extreme, though? Is watching your caloric intake and exercising every day more or less extreme than liposuction? Is wearing braces for a few years more or less extreme than getting a nose job?

[groovycat.livejournal.com]

the way i see it, whatever's more likely to kill you is more extreme. braces = long time annoyance, liposuction = short time physical injury.

A total stranger interjects...

[(Anonymous)]

Hello everyone! My thoughts on the subject: I'd say liposuction is extreme, because it can be life threatening. If the anesthesiologist screws up, the patient may not wake up at all. Going through a potentially deadly treatment for a cosmetic reason seems pretty darn insane, to me. Sadly, I knew a couple of kids whose mother never woke up from this "routine" procedure. Dying hair, rearranging teeth, exercising, etc. all have good reasons, as far as I'm concerned. Being trim is an indicator of health, for the most part, as are clean teeth and luxurious hair of a beautiful color. With a few bizarre exceptions in the standards of beauty around the world, a healthy person is a desirable mate. Undergoing a dangerous surgery to mimic fitness and health seems to me not only extreme, but extremely strange.
-Holly
BTW- Shanmonster, I love your page

Re: A total stranger interjects...

[shanmonster.livejournal.com]

Glad you like it, Holly!

Now, back to business....

Dying hair, rearranging teeth, exercising, etc. all have good reasons, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I do like to make things difficult.

Yes, any surgery requiring use of anesthetics is pretty darned serious, but basic things like the hair, teeth, and exercise are also potentially fatal. Dyes could be carcinogenic; the dentist could permanently damage tooth nerves or change my bite pattern for the worse; I could fall and break a leg, get hit by a car, or mugged while jogging. Everything has its dangers. Some are move obvious than others. On the grand scheme of things, are my odds smaller in getting seriously injured in martial arts classes than serious injuries being sustained while having flub sucked out my gut?

[(Anonymous)]

Alas! We do live in a dangerous world, don't we? Anything we do has a risk of some sort- even oxygen is bad for us, but I for one am rather attached to it ;) Seriously, though, I think of it as a sort of complicated cost-benefit thing, and also a probability problem. Orthodontia can have multiple long-term benefits that I think can outweigh the risks, and the same goes for possibly carcinogenic hair dyes (burnt toast is carcinogenic too, after all) and exercising. Liposuction provides only a temporary benefit, as it does nothing to change whatever the "problem" is in the first place- metabolism, bad habits, plain old genetics, etc. I see it as a pretty big risk (any invasive surgery is), providing a temporary aesthic benefit. It also seems strangely ironic that it mimics health by making the subject bedridden for a few days, at best.

[elanya.livejournal.com]

I don't understand what you mean by the 'benefits' of hair dye :o

Good Cosmo Surgery

[(Anonymous)]

I complain about cosmetic surgery when the results don't look natural. I think probably most _good_ cosmetic surgery is not noticable to someone who doesn't know the recipient, except that the recipient looks better to most people's tastes.

fodder

Thoughts

[curtana.livejournal.com]

Okay, obviously no reasonable person objects to "cosmetic" operations (whether dental or otherwise) when the underlying problem is either medically serious or would cause the person to have serious difficulties fitting into normal society. For instance, I've yet to see someone argue "Ah, if a kid's born with a harelip, they should just live that way - and if society is too shallow to accept them, then society needs to change."

The problem comes when people are having procedures for reasons that are best encompassed under the rubric "low self-esteem". If someone genuinely believes that having bigger breasts (or a smaller tummy, or whiter teeth, or whatever) will make them a better, happier person, then it seems to me that it would be more useful to address the underlying (psychological) problem, rather than immediately resorting to surgery or other expensive treatment.

Another point: tooth structure, unlike fat, is something you can't change. No amount of exercise will get rid of your overbite. Thus, one could argue that liposuction should generally be a last alternative, while braces are the *only* alternative. To my mind, braces/tooth extraction/retainers/etc. are much more similar to, say, a brace designed to straighted a back or leg - it's a long-term but non-invasive procedure.

Also like a leg or other brace, tooth modification is almost always inflicted upon children or adolescents (rarely at their own choice). I can't imagine many parents saying to a 13-year-old "Yeah, that nose of yours is pretty unfortunate - we'll get you some rhinoplasty right away." In contrast, most parents have no qualms (except perhaps financial ones if they're not well off) about getting their offspring braces - it's a socially acceptable practice in a way that plastic surgery isn't (yet, at least...)

And a final point: In my opinion, any body modification that is done for the glory of the end result, by a consenting adult, is fine. Many are not things I would do myself, but it would be pretty hypocritical of me to look down on someone who got a boob job or a gold-capped tooth because they thought it would look pretty. I got my tattoo for exactly the same reason - and it, like many other procedures, was both expensive and painful. When people feel that they must get some form of cosmetic body modification in order to be accepted, or in order to be happy, then there might be a problem.

[ghostpaw.livejournal.com]

Hi Shan! I've been reading your page for a couple of years now, and thanks to the wonders :) of LJ, I thought I'd add my twopennyworth.

I think it all comes down to social acceptance of the proccedure, which is a timescale thing more than anything. Hair dyeing (and tattooing) have been around for millenia, people have had plenty of time to get accustomed to it. Corrective dentistry has been around for a while in an easily accessable form as well, so people think nothing of it. But to compare attitudes between the US, where whitening and capping are inexpensive and readily available, to the UK, where it is only available though private clinics (whereas most people will think of 'normal' as the NHS public health), it is still viewed with great suspicion in the UK, something that the idle wealthy do, whereas in the the US its perfectly normal. As the costs of plastic surgery come down and the procedures become less arduos, so it will become more sociably acceptable. Just look at Botox treatment. In fact, in some areas of the world (NY, LA, Latin America, Paris spring to mind) this is already happening, and people do buy their children a nose-job for their 13th birthday. Boob-jobs however may still take a while to become completely acceptable as they are so blatanly in-your-face sexuall, and sexuallity is still quietly taboo in the public conciousness.

Final point, you mentioned hair-lips, and how the child had to be changed because society wouldn't accept them? Well, from a medical background, no. Depending on the severity, it needs to be fixed to spare the individual major speach-impediments, problems with eating, and an increase likelyhood of particularly nasty sinus infections. But then, I don't think many people are down on plastic-surgery for medical grounds (burns and major accident victims for example)

[amadruadaboleyn.livejournal.com]

On one hand, I'd say it was crap, and that people really ought to leave well enough alone-I was in China recently, and while the people there may not have Osmond-esque choppers, they do all right without copious amounts of dental care. On the other appendage, my little brother's teeth were so bad that one of his canines actually grew out of his upper jaw. Oddly enough, he isn't the only person I know with this problem...

I guess if you're getting dental work done for the sheer sake of having perfect teeth, it's rather silly-and expensive!-but if you have major oral structure issues, it's all right, much the same as a breast cancer survivor getting implants, or a car accident victim getting facial reconstruction surgery.

Sadly enough, the teen magazines in the US seem to be advocating cosmetic surgery. Through some horrible twist of fate, a relative subscribed me to ym magazine. I'm sure you have it in Canada, but I doubt it's something you've ever read, growing up a Jehovah's WItness (and having a brain...), so let me explain: this magazine is so vapid, and panders so much to self-obsessed preteen fashionistas, it could kill cattle. (Don't ask me how. I'm too jet-lagged to think of a decent metaphor) They recently voted Brown University a school for "losers" simply because they were "sick of hearing about it" and...well, I'm digressing.

Anyways, in their recent evil issue, there was an article about a sixteen-year-old getting a nose job. I naively assumed the surgery was being done because she had breathing problems, or because her nose had been broken at some point. Not so; she'd been whining for the surgery since the age of ten because she thought her nose was too big.

Her nose was fine. It was pretty small, actually, and well-proportioned. The "After" shot was awful! The nose was shockingly flat, and what's worse, it was a hook-nose. Yet this is exactly how the girl wanted it. Her first words after the surgery were "Do I look like crap?"

Gah.

another perspective

[(Anonymous)]

I am not against anyone doing anything they want to improve their bodies except when this is being used to fix things that aren't really wrong. BDD is a dangerous thing in our society. I used to bleach my face because I thought it would dry out my pimples that weren't there. So, I think the way our society treats plastic surgery and other corrective things needs to be scrutinized. My BDD has been under control for many years, but there are many people who will have treatment and surgeries and corrections over and over, and it never solves the real problem.

Focus on the face and teeth are dramatically becoming more and more important. I had horribly crooked teeth as a child. I had braces for six years. I prefer the straight teeth, because people thought I was poverty stricken, retarded, and ugly, and kids being the opportunists they are, were quick to tell me so.

There is also the issue of false advertising. I had crooked teeth, my dad had crooked teeth, and it went on for generations. So, now, I have a son, and I worry that he'll get the same problem. So, in an evolutionary way, have I falsely advertised that I'm fine genetic material to attract friends and a mate and have a child, just to pass on a trait that is regarded as unattractive?

Growing up with bad teeth, I know this is a valid fear in American society. I think it is very superficial and absurd, but it doesn't change how I was treated. All the newest studies show that the majority of all people react to attractive people better than unattractive people. Attractive people get friends, jobs, mates, help, and attention quicker and easier than unattractive people. The idea of attraction can differ greatly from culture to culture, but it seems there is a very real, pervasive idea of what beauty is in all cultures. Men from East and West will pick the same women as being attractive no matter her race or cultural backgraound. Same for women of east and west picking attractive men. And all cultures treat the attractive better than the unattractive.

It isn't whether this is good/ethical or not, it just is.

So, as an American, I will take advantage of every opportunity to look as good as I can. For friends, jobs, and community - as well as having a loving companion.

Re: another perspective

[shanmonster.livejournal.com]

I know I'm missing something obvious here. What is BDD?

Re: another perspective

[(Anonymous)]

BDD - Body dysmorphic disorder: when one has a very distorted and negative view of how one looks.

As for the original thread, I think people don't get down on one another for "cosmetic" dentistry because good dental care has a significant impact on our overall health. Orthodontics can help prevent future dental caries, and periodontal disease because teeth that are misaligned may be harder to clean. Also there is an unexpected correlation between dental disease and systemic disease. People who had periodontal disease have a significantly higher incidence of heart disease, stroke and premature death.

Braces also aid people with TMD (Temporomandibular Joint Disorders), which is a disorder concerning the jaw joint. My mother suffered from this, but it wasn't diagnosed until she was in her mid-30's and so advanced she suffered migraine headaches for days at a time. She had to have corrective surgery and wear a splint in her mouth for a year. They caught my TMD early enough that I was able to wear braces, which corrected my overbite and thus prevented many of the problems brought on by TMD.

I live in Los Angeles, cosmetic surgery capitol of the world. I don't know how acceptable such surgeries are in other places around the world, but around here people are quick to point out when someone has had work done on their bodies. It's accepted, though I think possibly looked upon with some scorn. Almost as if people resent being fooled. Perhaps it's because cosmetic surgery is so prevalent that people around here prize and admire the natural beauty over the silicone one.

Princess_of_Poppycock